When Stephen “DM Armada” Cookus spoiled this Bobby Heenan card on the latest episode of our podcast, “Rollin’ Thunder – Talkin’ Dice Masters” (S2E4)…( Rollin’ Thunder – S2E4 Show & Show Notes ) a smile crept across my face.  

Listening to Heenan’s quips with his foil Gorilla Monsoon back in the day always made me chuckle.  A master of how to “sour the crowd”, Heenan was always one of my favorite heels.  “A friend in need is a pest,” he famously uttered.

But the card, itself (ability-wise), is interesting in and of itself, and a great conversation starter as it brings into relief the old “you can’t force people to pay a cost” rulings from the early days of competitive play.

With that in mind, I thought I’d write up a post on the card and the history of the “can’t force people to pay a cost” rulings, in the hopes of getting the collective community’s hive mind bubbling on the issue, and perhaps coming to some consensus on how it should be applied and played.

What is a Cost vs What is the Result of an Effect (Consequence)?

We begin our discussion with Page 27 of the X-Men Forever Rulebook and the description of what constitutes a cost.

Note in particular – “When something would typically be detrimental to the player using it in isolation, it should be considered a cost (examples are losing life/taking damage, KOing a die or otherwise removing it from the Field, spinning down a die, removing a die from the Prep Area, etc.)”

Now let’s move onto some of the rulings on the subject.  It’s interesting to note, that although “taking damage” is an example of something that is “detrimental to the player using it in isolation” and is mentioned as something that should be considered as a cost – none of the rulings below specifically mention “taking damage” as a cost that can’t be forced upon an opponent.  They all relate to “losing life”.   Which as the first ruling below spells out, is a cost.

This isn’t to suggest that “taking damage” couldn’t be an element in a future “can’t force an opponent to pay a cost ruling” (especially when it is used in conjunction with some of the other criteria listed below), but it’s intesting to note that “taking damage” has yet to be associated with any of the rulings associated with this particular topic yet.

Paying Life vs Taking Damage Ruling –
Paying Life is a Cost

Please note in the above ruling that losing life and paying life are different, and that losing life is not spelled out as a cost, while paying life is.

Some Rulings on the Subject of Costs…

So interesting twist – you can’t force yourself to pay a cost either according to the Spectre and the Kitty Pryde/Goblin Attack Force rulings above.  How can you put this to your own advantage?  Counter-intuitively you can apply a “can’t” global to a die that has a “must” ability that you’d rather not have to abide by and voila!  Now you don’t have to.  In this case, perhaps you would prefer to have a blocker in the field and would rather not swing with your Goblin Attack Force die even though his text reads, “This monster must attack”.  If you pay the mask for the Kitty Pryde global, guess what – you don’t have to attack anymore, because you can’t force yourself to pay a cost (in this case 1 life).

This is the most current ruling in this post to address the forcing an opponent to pay a cost issue and the back half of this particular ruling often gets overlooked, perhaps because The Spot: Portal Jumper clarification portion of it overshadowed some very important meta information in the answer to the question about The Riddler: Creature of Pure Pride.  In that section of the ruling The Dice Masters Rules Team helps delineate the difference between a cost and the result of an effect (consequence).

Here they spell out that even though the Riddler’s effect (or Tabaxi’s for that matter) could be described as a “tax” it shouldn’t be considered a cost, because his ability doesn’t require a “prerequisite coming before the effect”.  This idea of a “prerequisite” is the key to understanding what constitutes a cost that cannot be forced upon an opponent.

They specify that if The Riddler’s text was, “…your opponent must pay 2 life to roll or reroll a die other than during the Roll and Reroll Step” it would be considered a cost – because that would constitute a prerequisite (definition = a thing that is required as a prior condition for something else to happen or exist).

Note the presence of the words “pay” and “life” coming up once again when dealing with things that involve costs, whereas The Riddler and Tabaxi both have a “when x happens, deal damage” type of text, which is what the Rules team is calling an effect (consequence).

Combining this idea with the previous ruling on Kitty Pryde and Goblin Attack Force, might there be a card that could cause The Riddler’s effect to force you to have to make a choice to pay a cost? (this would work against Green Devil Mask too by the way).  Unfortunately, I could not find one. M.O.D.O.K. and Obelisk came the closest.   If only you could substitute the words “any player” for “your opponent/s” on either  M.O.D.O.K. or Obelisk, then Riddler’s effect when combined with Green Devil Mask would be forcing you to pay a cost and you could choose to opt out of it and not reroll as you cannot be forced to pay a cost.

As lots of rerolling effects are slated to be introduced in the upcoming Marvel Draft packs, we should keep our eyes peeled for a card with just such a counter ability.

My Thoughts on Heenan and these Rulings…

From this last ruling then, can we then deduce that a cost has to be something that is “a prerequisite coming before the effect“?  For example, with SR Lantern Battery in order to block, you first must pay 1 life per die you choose to block with before you are even able to block.

Where does that leave us with this Bobby Heenan card in particular?  When I first sat down to write this post, I was looking at the original Kitty Pryde/SR Lantern Battery ruling which said, “you cannot force an opponent to pay a cost by the interaction of two card abilities,” and thinking that pairing Heenan’s effect with a force block global or card ability would create such a situation, as paying life has clearly been established to be a cost.  Heenan’s card, however, doesn’t say pay life – it says lose life and as the opening ruling above states clearly – “Taking damage, losing life and paying life are all different.”

With this in mind, and after listening to Lucan’s emphatic objections and looking more closely at the Riddler ruling, I’ve come to believe that you can pair Heenan’s ability with a force block effect and it wouldn’t fall into the case of forcing the opponent to pay a cost.  Why?  It’s because of what is actually some pretty carefully worded text on his ability that points to an important timing issue when discussing this meta rule. 

The fact that it doesn’t state “pay” is central to this timing issue.  When player A fields a Heenan die, Player B doesn’t have to pay life before they can block (which is a prerequisite [a thing that is required as a prior condition for something else to happen or exist]), rather they lose life after they assign blockers (an effect or result/consequence).  Thus, this issue of timing is critical to assessing whether or not something is a cost that can’t be forced upon an opponent – otherwise all the negative consequences we force opponents into accepting (e.g. an overcrushing God Catcher or the effect from a Rare Harley Quinn) could be avoided.

The other question that is sure to arrise with Heenan’s “when fielded” ability is, does it stack?  I look at The Weasel’s card and see a “when fielded” ability that creates a persistent effect.  Do persistent effects stack or is it just a duplication of an already existing state of affairs?  We know that persistent effects on action dice like “The Front Line,” “Vicious Struggle,” “Cosmic Cube” and “Vibranium Shield” do stack (see rulings Iron Fist vs Storm and Cosmic Cube , Vicious Struggle Clarifications , Questions About Action Dice).  We also know that persistent effects on “when attack” abilities like Spider-Man Tangled Web or Half-Elf Bard also stack (see rulings Multiple Spider-Man dice , Half-Elf Bard ruling ).  While there is no precisely relevant ruling on a “when fielded” ability and persistent, stacking effects we know that “when fielded” effects enter the cue independently for each die that is fielded and resolve independently (once for each die that was fielded).  It’s my opinion, therefore, that Bobby Heenan’s persistent effect would stack and compound with each fielded die as each would trigger independently of the other.

So those are some of the overall macro issues this card brings up, but what about the micro?  Is the card itself any good?  Will it see play?  I think the answer to both of those questions is yes.  Though it’s probably not a top tier card, it has a place on a lot of fun competitive agro teams and should be a joy to any Johnny brewer out there.

Plus, there is also the new keyword coming in WWE called “Tag Out” (and there’s also a global in the set that grants the ability to a character die).  “Tag Out” could be really useful to low attack stat characters, like Heenan, that want to swing and cycle.

Tag Out: After blockers are declared, you may Prep this die from the Field Zone to give target character die +2A and +2D until end of turn. (WWEDM1)

From the Dice Masters Keywords Page ( https://wizkids.com/dicemasters/keywords/  )

Cards that Make for Interesting Parings with Bobby Heenan – The Weasel

This card with Heenan is just dirty pool. Pair this with Nihiloor global too and your opponent better keep a thin field…

Dani / Doom Lance / Heenan could get ugly for cheap…

Pair this card with Heenan and a cheap Deadly character or Dani Moonstar.  ’nuff said.

This is a fun casual game combo –  The Weasel and Super Squirrelly!  Your opponent is going to want to block your Squirrel Girl with multiple blockers to reduce her damage… but if they do that they’ll be taking more damage from Heenan!

Any character die that requires multiple blockers is a natural pairing with Bobby Heenan – The Weasel.  This two cost mask Beast is the most obvious choice, but other good casual, alternatives are Hill Giant: Master Giant, Gamora: Power of Gem, Two-Face: Good Ol’ Harv, and She-Hulk: Lady Liberator.

Fabricate 2-4 Cycle the Heenan dice and throw big stated, block worthy Golems at your opponent.  ’nuff said.

Then use the Blink-Transmutation after blockers are declared to add some serious insult to injury (or in this case damage to life loss  ) !

Well I think I’ve bloat droned on long enough on this dissertation.  Please remember – these are only my opinions and not only may my interpretation of the acceptability of combining Heenan’s ability with a force block ability crumble under some future ruling, but the card text itself may change by the time it actually drops in the new year.

Regardless, I hope the topic of forcing costs is interesting and thought provoking on its own.  Let us know your thoughts, comments and other nutty combos!  ’nuff said!